Relationship Anarchy & Matrimony Inc

DATING THROUGH THE AGES

It’s been a very tumultuous week, month, year…you get the picture.

But the Dates & Mates train has to keep on trucking because people still need help in love.

So today, we thought it’d be a welcome departure to hear some love stories from a more romantic era with Francesca Beauman, historian and author.

Francesca has gone through hundreds of years of personals ads from people looking for marriage and she’s compiled them all into the delightful new book, Matrimony, Inc.

But first, let’s dish:

DATING DISH

Rules for Dating in Second Lock Down

A second lockdown is coming, so it’s time to define the relationship now. Damona explains why.

Relationship Anarchy

Relationship Anarchy – the latest movement shaping the future of love. Damona weighs in.

Photos Men Should Not Put On a Dating Profile

Photos mentioned: bad selfies, gym mirror selfies, and photos at the Women’s March. Damon explains why.

THE HISTORY OF LOVE

Damona and Francesca explore how the search for love throughout history has built the foundation for dating today.

Check of Francesca’s new book Matrimony, Inc: From Personal Ads to Swiping Right, a Story of American Looking for Love

FOLLOW ALONG HERE!

Damona 0:10

Hello, lovers, we are recording this on what I think is day four of the election saga. And it’s been a tumultuous day already. Well, a tumultuous week, actually month. Well, let’s be real year, you get the picture. But the dates made strain it has to keep on trucking because people still need help and love. And I’m reading the room y’all. The other day when I finished my coaching call for my my women’s group program, I realized there’s a lot of anxious energy not just in dating, but overall. So today, I thought it’d be a welcome departure. To hear some love stories from a more Romantic era with Francesca Bowman, historian and author. Get this Francesca has found personal ads from various newspapers over the last couple hundred years that were written by people looking for marriage, and she’s compiled them all into the delightful new book, matrimony Inc. So today we’re going to explore how the search for love throughout history has built the foundation for dating today. And I’m so excited for y’all to hear this interview. And to have a little fun with us and a little levity. and bask in the fantasy with me and Francesca. But first as always, we have headlines. Lock your relationships down now because a second lockdown is on the horizon. Hmm. And relationship anarchy, the latest movement shaping the future of love, plus, the photos you should put on your dating profile today. Now that sir, just watched the Borah, subsequent movie feel so funny. I had to call that one back. All right, why don’t we get on with it. And let’s dish

Unknown Speaker 2:20

these dating dish.

Damona 2:22

bustle reported the new rules for dating in a second lockdown. So I know we have people from all over the US, from Canada from the UK. And I just found out that our friends in the UK as of today, the day that we’re recording this, they are facing a second lockdown and the writing is on the wall, folks, it ain’t going so hot in many other places. So there’s a really good chance that lockdown can be coming your way again. So number one, get your routes taken care of. That’s what I’ll be doing. Get my getting my little haircut done, getting my roots done. Get yourself put together because we could be in this for a while. That aside, okay, do what you want. If you if you if you don’t, if you don’t feel like doing all that and getting yourself gussied up, that’s fine. But you should know how it’s going to affect dating in the future. Because remember, this anxiety that I was talking about at the beginning of the show? Well, that is increasing as we are approaching cuffing season. And the options for virtual for for social distance dates are are going to be dwindling. So I suggest let’s get comfortable. Again, with the virtual zoom, zoom video chat dates. Maybe you could have an activity, watch a movie together. But over video chat, figure out some ways that you can still connect and feel together even if you have to do it apart. And maybe you should be thinking at this point about a support bubble. I think none of us could really have anticipated what was coming back in the spring. And it’s a wise idea for you to broaden out your social circle this may be with a partner. This may be also with a a f buddy. Maybe he didn’t you didn’t cough yet. But look, we still have needs. So maybe you have an agreement with somebody that’s in your circles so you can still get your needs met. During the winter months. The UK Government says sleep overs aren’t allowed. And so this is something that we’re going to have to learn how to work around so it’s decision time for some of you. And for others. It may be at time for expansion in figuring out how to date in a new way.

There was a super interesting article in self this week about relationship anarchy. I had never heard of this phrase before but Basically what it means is putting less emphasis on titles of different people in your life like partner, sibling, parent friend, and also putting less emphasis on your relationship significance. And I would say, relationship anarchy, it sounds kind of dramatic. And believe me, there was a lot of there’s high drama in this article. But I really love at the core, the message that it’s giving us, like they cited that you’re expected to prioritize ties your mother, just because she’s your mother, or your romantic partner, you are supposed to live with them, because they’re your romantic partner. But what if, what if it looked different? You know, we’re just talking about bubbles? What if you live with your platonic partner, but your romantic partner is someone that you see now more like, the way in the frequency that you see a friend. And I’ve been actually talking about something similar to this for a while, in not making your partner the center of your world, I think that’s really dangerous. When you’re expecting your partner to deliver everything to you, they’re supposed to be your confidant, your activity partner, your romantic partner, your co housekeeper. And that puts a lot of pressure on one person to fulfill all your needs. So I’ve always said make sure you keep investing in the other relationships. And I remember, situations with friends that would always get sucked into that black hole of relationships, I think you know what I’m talking about. And then they, they forget all of the other friendships, they give everything to that partner. And then when a breakup comes here, they come crawling back, like you’re my best friend, again. And I think there there is something to be said for relationship anarchy and the points that this person makes in this article that it’s a reminder, you can choose how much time you give to people, you can choose the focus that you give to people, obviously, you want to be on the same page with your romantic partner. So they feel they’re getting their needs met, as well. But let’s not, especially in a time like this, let’s not minimize your relationships with your friends and your family. And in the article, they’re talking about maybe getting rid of labels altogether. I don’t know if you want to go that far with it. But I think it’s ripe. I think it’s the right time for you to maybe re examine how much focus you put on finding that romantic partner, and the rule that you’re looking for them to fill in your life and take stock of what you already have and the people you already have that are bringing you love right now. Inside hook told us how to find love with the right dating profile. If you’re a guy, and what you should be putting in your dating profile. I thought this was a

Unknown Speaker 8:07

What did I think?

Unknown Speaker 8:10

I’m gonna take that back.

Damona 8:14

Inside hook shared the photos that men should never put in a dating profile. A lot of these were standard and a lot of these I’ve said for a long time I have them in my book like hello no excessive group pics, I would say actually no group pics, I always say you have to be the star of your profile. We don’t want anyone else distracting the focus from you. Because I know like when I’m swiping for clients, I’m looking at you and your friends and I can’t tell which one you are and what if your friend is more attractive than you are, then you don’t want to set yourself up for that. You don’t want to have somebodies Phantom arm strangely cropped out of your photo. I see this a lot the Phantom hair, I can still tell and I’m still making determinations. Like if I see random blonde hair hanging over your shoulder, and my client is brunette. I’m thinking well, maybe this is not a fit and you just don’t want to place that. That moment of questioning in someone’s mind when they’re going through making split second decisions. Most women it takes seven seconds for them to make a decision about a profile for men it’s only five or less. So you really have to lead with that your best foot forward on your dating profile if you’re wanting to make a connection. Some other things to avoid according to inside hook. They said selfies I really want to know what you all think of this. I have come around to selfies being a normal and acceptable part of a dating profile. But they were saying bad selfies are almost less bad. Then good selfies because good selfies can be deceitfully flattering. But I mean, we’re in the middle of a pandemic, who’s running around with like a photo shoot a photographer following them around taking their dating profile photos. That surprised me. I’m still in favor of the selfies, just make sure that they’re taken with good lighting at the appropriate angle. And not in the bed. According to this article. No bed selfies. That’s not something I see a lot. Maybe Maybe you’re on different apps than my clients. But I’m not seeing too many bed selfies, but definitely no gym, mirror selfies. This is rampant, rampant issue in dating profiles, the gym mirror selfies while we’re at it, just no mirror selfies and also this is really interesting. They said no shirtless pics. dating.com did a little study on this and said that straight men who included shirtless photos of themselves and their dating profiles tended to perform far worse on online dating platforms and got 25% fewer matches than their fully clothed counterparts. We like the ABS just let us work for them a little bit more and leave something to the imagination. All right, that’s the headlines for this week. In a moment we will be back with author Francesca Bowman and a deep dive into the history of dating profiles and what you can learn from them today. We are back and I am here with someone who has one of the most interesting buy lines I have ever read. Francesca Bowman is a former TV host historian and part time bookseller. She is also the author of six books including a history of the pineapple and a history of British personal ads. Francesca Bowman’s latest deep dive into history is matrimony Inc. From personal ads to swiping right, a story of America looking for love. I’m so excited to introduce her here on dates and mates to you please help me give big smooches to Francesca Bowman,

Unknown Speaker 12:12

thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. I am so

Damona 12:16

excited about this book. matrimony Inc. Because Well, I mean, I’ll just say the subtitle from personal ads to swiping right a story of America looking for love. It’s so resonated for me as someone who found love online and now on the show coaches, so many people to be able to use the tools of dating apps to find love. The parallels were obviously glaringly obvious.

Unknown Speaker 12:43

parallels. Yeah,

Damona 12:44

I just want to begin, first of all, where I know you’re a book person, where did you get the idea? From?

Unknown Speaker 12:53

I have always been interested in personal ads, right? I’ve always kind of read them, you know, years ago, when they’d be in the back of the newspaper or magazines. I’d always trawl through them. Because there is something so amazing about these kind of tiny little detective stories, right? Just a few hundred words. And there’s somebody whose whole life in some ways, you know, they’re in the newspaper, I can remember some of my favorites like, woman who likes pastor seats, man who likes source, you know, these very, like, concise, cute little personal ads. And then one day on a whim, I started looking into them, and I found they dated back much, much further than anybody ever knew. And after just like a few weeks trawling through old American newspapers, I found America’s earliest personal ads, which no one knew existed, no one knew how far back it goes. But I found America’s first ever personal ad, which was from the Boston Evening Post in 1759. So really, a long time ago. And once I found that I realized that there was an amazing story to be told here, right? Because all these personal ads, then, you know, became computer dating, and then obviously, dating websites, and now dating apps. They give you so much evidence over 250 years about the history of our emotions, our desires, and most importantly, the history of mate choice, right? What men look for in a woman women and women look for in a man and how that’s changed. Well, or I’m afraid often not change over the past 250 years.

Unknown Speaker 14:20

Okay,

Damona 14:21

I you have said so much. And I’ve just like, I don’t even know where to begin with. So many so many questions. First of all, 1759. What does an ad from that era look like?

Unknown Speaker 14:35

Right, great question. So I spent weeks and months trawling through old newspapers, in libraries basements of libraries all over America. And the Boston Evening Post was one of America’s earliest newspapers. And then one day, there it is, like on the front page of the newspaper, and it was Yeah, February the 23rd 1759. And what’s amazing is it gives you such an insight into what I do. guy in Boston looked for in a woman then right. So this is what he was looking for any young lady between the age of 18 and 23, have a middling stature, brown hair, regular features, and with a lively, brisk guy have good morals. So that’s like, the starting point, he then goes on to say, must be possessed of three or 400 pounds entirely at her disposal. So there’s all kinds of interesting things in that, like, wait, he’s looking for women between 18 and 23. So, you know, really young by all standards today, but at the time, the average age for a woman to marry was 22 and a half. So between 18 and 23, but he’s trying to catch him young, Captain young and fertile at the time, young and fertile, I’m afraid. I love the way he says of middling stature and brown hair, like what does he have against blondes back there in 1759, he’s very specific that he wants a woman with brown hair, regular features, good morals, of course, very important to be respectful at the time, and then three or 400 pounds. And so if you take that all together, basically what this Boston gentleman is looking for is a woman who is young, respectable and rich.

Unknown Speaker 16:11

That’s what anyone would want of climbing.

Unknown Speaker 16:13

Certainly there is some consistency in terms of what people look for.

Damona 16:19

So based on what I hear now, from people who are tentative about dating apps and online dating, why would a guy in that era turned to a newspaper to find his match.

Unknown Speaker 16:36

So for almost exactly the same reasons, as people do today, and we can see that in the evidence, when you start getting hundreds of thousands of personal ads, again, that no one really knew exists until I researched them. They really took off in Philadelphia in 1840s. And in those ads, lots of the men are very specific about why they’re placing these ads, right. And it basically comes down to, they’re new in town, they work long hours, they don’t have time to meet people. Sometimes it’s because they’re kind of shy, you know, sound familiar? Like it’s all the same reasons as people do today, really. And why it happens is with urbanization and industrialization, right. So once these cities grew, once the population of Boston hit 20,000, New York, 30,000, Philadelphia 50,000, you can’t any longer rely on like your mum to match you are or you know, your church to match you up or your friend or your neighbor next door to match you up, which is how it would have been done in the olden days. If you’re moving to the big city, you’re getting a new job as people were in the 18th century, you’ve got to kind of turn to some new forms of matchmaking. And so, you know, because people were kind of tentative about this, they will explain in their ads that like, they’ll say, Oh, I’m a stranger in the city, or one guy says, He talks about himself in the third person, he says, have a rather bashful retiring disposition, which has hitherto prevented him from mixing much in female company. So we shy fair enough. Another guy says,

Damona 18:10

I’m wordsmith too. So I mean, they all match that one up.

Unknown Speaker 18:15

Exactly. They all are such wordsmith. And that’s, you know, what’s so wonderful about many of these ads. And now the guy says, I’m being closely confined by his business, he cannot devote the time necessary to a protracted courtship, He therefore avail himself of the medium of a publication to express his wishes. So that guy’s just in a hurry, like, works really long hours, and he’s in a hurry. So we you know what, one of my favorite things about researching this was, was how relatable or these people are, you know, though they’re advertising for a lot of the same reasons that people are today, right? work really long hours, who has time to meet people, maybe they’ve moved to like a different part of the country. So they’re far away from like, that college friends or whatever, or you know, their mom or so it’s really the same reasons as today.

Damona 19:01

Well, and our listeners have heard me say before that online dating now is the predominant way that people are meeting more than all the other methods you mentioned through friends through family through church. Yeah, and, and even though some people aren’t ready to embrace it, I feel like the the the interpretation of dating apps, the the reputation of dating apps has shifted a little bit. But even just going back I’ve also talked about on the show before how even a few generations ago most people met and married someone who lived in their own hometown, they lived within five miles of their house according to two records even back in the 1940s and the 1920s. So you’re going even further back, there must have been some sort of some sort of a feeling in the 1840s. If you had to go to a newspaper To find love, did that have a stigma around

Unknown Speaker 20:03

it? You know, not as much as you might think when it first started, I mean, some other advertisers Do you know, you say things like, oh, secrecy assured or no trifle as need apply, you know, to show that they were serious and genuine about this, but like you say, um, there was a real a need for it. And it in some ways became a public service, you know, like a postal system, right? Because if you couldn’t just marry the girl next door, or, you know, the boy you went to school with, and people couldn’t, not just because of urbanization, but increasingly in the 19th century. And with the settling of the West, right, in some parts of the American West, there was such a gender disparity there. There was you know, like an Iowa there was three men for every one woman in California during the Gold Rush, there were 250 men for every one woman right. And so then, right, then it’s just a question of need. And and therefore, it’s a result that isn’t necessarily the stigma surrounding it that you that you might think when the stigma emerged really was after the peak of personal ads of advertising for love in the 1860s 1870s, when there were so many hundreds and thousands of these personal ads in every state in the nation, every local newspaper from Kansas to Wisconsin, why Wyoming North Dakota, every local newspaper had personal ads saying wife wanted or husband wanted, do the 1870s 1880s when the stigma came was actually around the turn of that century, around 1900 1910 when there was a huge crime wave that was reported around the person ads, it’s not necessarily that it was the first Crime Wave, but the first crime wave that was reported with the rise of newspapers and newspapers who like to scandal, right, so they didn’t report they didn’t report stories of people who met through a personal ad and lived happily ever after. Because that’s not interesting to anybody. Right? They were they sadly reported stories of you know, when there was like a crime like fraud or bigamy or even murder and there were a lot of those, you know, particularly in the New York Times around 1900 9010 and that’s what really gave advertising for love. It’s kind of bad rap for a long time. It meant people thought it was like scary or worrying or you know, that it would it would cause problems and it was dangerous and that was a kind of early 20th century thing really so it came in actually the stigma surrounding it emerged much later than you might think. Huh

Damona 22:27

See that’s so resonates i i’m i’m always saying that we hear these stories because they’re rare or because like you said they make a good salacious story they sell newspapers they sat gets you to watch the television show

Unknown Speaker 22:42

exactly not

Damona 22:43

you don’t hear the the mundane stories because

Unknown Speaker 22:46

they’re not as they’re not they’re

Unknown Speaker 22:48

not as entertaining. It’s not as entertaining to people if they’re like, Oh, yeah, we met we met we fell in love When we lived happily ever after. And everyone’s like, oh, boring, you know, they want to hear their like salacious, scandalous stories, you don’t hear the kind of stable, happy, delightful loving stories, right? Because that, you know, human nature doesn’t sadly respond to those in the same way.

Damona 23:09

That you you have some positive stories in in your books,

Unknown Speaker 23:13

and many

Damona 23:14

of them on your Instagram. So tell us tell me some of the good stories because we do we love a good rom com as well. There must have been some positive.

Unknown Speaker 23:23

There was so many positive stories, hundreds and hundreds of them and and you know, many of your listeners will probably have grandparents or great grandparents who met through a personal ad. They maybe just don’t know about it. But people you know, would write to me and say oh, my great grandmother met her husband through a Perseids. So for example, one of my favorite stories is about a woman named Augusto Lawson, who was a Swedish immigrant. And in 1892, she answered a personal ad that had been placed in a Chicago based newspaper where she lives. It was from a guy called all roods, who was from Norway originally and had settled in Washington state where he farmed the land they were he was really a pioneer that there were hardly any women and to speak to your point of why do people advertise, like, what else was he supposed to do? Right, there are hardly any women around. So it was really smart and sensible to put an ad in a newspaper. You know, in one of the big cities. agasa Lawson saw this this personal ad, they wrote to each other for a few months. And then she amazingly decided that her best bet was to travel 2000 miles to go meet him. So she got the, you know, she got the train and then she got the coach and then she turned up in this tiny town in Washington State, but they met and they married and they had kids and they farmed the land, you know, places like Washington state would not exist without these kind of pioneers, right. You need them to, you know, build families and to build a nation and in that way personal ads all forms of advertising for level release. central to the, to the founding of America in that way, because without them, these couples, you know, wouldn’t have met. So that’s one of my favorite stories because it really speaks to, you know, the history of modern America in so many ways.

Damona 25:13

I love that I’m always telling my children, I’m like 100 years ago, y’all would be here to just tell the field. Like, right, take your dish to the sink, so you don’t go out and shuck some corn or whatever.

Unknown Speaker 25:26

Right? Exactly. So much is different. But then so much stays the same. And I mean, that also speaks to the number of women who advertised in newspapers, like in the 18th and 19th century, so, so many more women than you might think, put personal ads in newspapers, and you’ll see them in national newspapers, local newspapers, they have this headline that says husband wanted and kind of bold black type. And they really are amazing. Some are very different to what you might read, like on a Tinder profile today and someone kind of the same. So can I give you one of them?

Damona 26:01

Oh, yes, yes. And then I want to talk about communication because you also got me thinking with the love letters, but I want to hear one more and then we can

Unknown Speaker 26:09

Okay, so tell me if this is the kind of thing you might meet on a Tinder profile today. This was an ad placed by a woman is in Wisconsin in 1855. She talks about herself a little and then she describes what she she’s looking for in a guy. She says, I want to know brainless dandy or foppish full, but a practical man who can drive a coach or rock the cradle to the garden or attend the ballroom on the whole he must dress neat. Look well and keep his head up in society.

Damona 26:39

That’s all I hear. Francesca they want a man’s man. Right? Don’t yet don’t don’t hate on don’t hate on what did she say? She says

Unknown Speaker 26:51

no foppish? No. No brainless dandy or foppish fool.

Damona 26:59

That’s funny. I it’s, it’s amazing to me how similars these some of these patterns are. But when you brought up the love story, and you mentioned how they wrote to each other, right for a while. That’s the part that I feel nostalgic for. And I feel like that’s the thing that’s changed, like people want to blame dating apps for the, for the dissolution of courtship. But I really think it’s more communication. And the way that we that we talk to one another, and the way that we build relationships, that has changed so much, even just in the last 10 years, so they would connect, and then they’d send letters back and forth, where they could really get to know one another. Right doesn’t just like, like, hey, Netflix and chill.

Unknown Speaker 27:47

Right, exactly. And what it does is it builds a friendship, right from the very beginning, it builds a friendship through, there’s less writing, I would say, I mean, I’d be interested to know what you think about this, it does seem to me that that is one positive spin of the pandemic, right, is that because people are not able to meet up on a first date in the way that they used to, maybe they’re having to communicate in other ways, you know, on on zoom, or whatever it is, it creates more space to build a friendship in the same way you might have done if you were a seamstress in Iowa in 1870. And you were writing letters to a goldmine and California, back and forth and back and forth for weeks and months. If you build a relationship, you build a friendship before you actually meeting and I do wonder if if that’s to be optimistic about right now when dating and a pandemic obviously has so many challenges that what the one upside is it does give you space to build a friendship before anything else happens. And surely, that could be a wonderful thing.

Damona 28:51

I really want people to hear and and process what you just said, because that is the opportunity that we have right now. And I think that’s where we were maybe three months ago. Unfortunately, what I’m seeing right now, and I’m not gonna call any of you out at this very moment, but I’m seeing actually there’s a little bit of panic setting in over cuffing season, like everybody’s trying to partner up before things get cold. And, and the fatigue, just the pandemic fatigue. being around people for so long, is causing people to do real really crazy things. And just like Well, you know what, it’s fine, we’ll just make out it’s fine. I’m sure it will be fine. And I have always said slow Love is the way to go. Just like you were saying. Taking the time to build that connection doesn’t mean that you have to be like writing letters across the miles. But just taking some time first to get to know each other before you build the intimacy and before you like rush into rivaling,

Unknown Speaker 29:52

like to build a friendship to become friends because that’s what’s going to see you through the tough times as we all know it’s it’s it’s the friendship That means that relationships can then last 20 or 30 or 50 years. It’s the future that’s at the core of it. Well, and

Damona 30:07

you’re happily married lady.

Unknown Speaker 30:08

So I

Damona 30:09

would take advice from you.

Unknown Speaker 30:12

I mean, don’t take any advice from me.

Unknown Speaker 30:14

How did you?

Damona 30:15

How did you and your husband meet?

Unknown Speaker 30:16

So we met, I used to be a TV host. Like 100 years ago, I used to be a TV host on British TV. And he was a TV director, and he directed a show that I was hosting. But it was the first one I’d ever done in a TV studio. And I was kind of a little bit vague about how microphones work. Like, I’m not an idiot, right? So when I talk about the director, I’d be like, oh, like, I really like him or three, see, if we’ll come up for a drink tonight, I would cover my microphone, I’m not a total idiot. But what I didn’t realize is that even then the microphone picks it up. So being this TV studio, you know, in between takes, like, with the makeup lady doing, you know, my makeup and suddenly doing my hair, and I’d be like chatting to my co hosts. And all of this would be broadcast into the entire like gallery that you know, the vision mixer and including my, you know, husband, to me, but you know, again, at least in you, I liked him from really early on.

Unknown Speaker 31:12

I love that.

Unknown Speaker 31:13

I love that. In a sense, you

Damona 31:15

kind of made the first move or

Unknown Speaker 31:17

you know, right? Yes, by mistake. I made the first move.

Damona 31:22

But you let it be known how you feel because today I feel like so many people are like, I don’t want him No, I like him. I’m just gonna play cool. If she knew I was into her, she wouldn’t like me back and I’m just like, enough, enough of the of the pretense let’s just, let’s just be real. So right. By default,

Unknown Speaker 31:40

your real when a guy really likes you, he really likes you. So you know, my, you know, my husband’s I mean, I think he was just busy. And I hadn’t occurred to him. And then we went out for drinks. And then like, oh, and then we had to keep it a secret for ages. Because like, you don’t want to be like, you know, having a thing with somebody at work. Right? Who does that unless it’s serious. So the first few weeks, we kind of kept it secret. And so I’d be like, in the makeup chair before the show, and he’d have to like come in and be like, how’s everyone this morning? Everyone? Okay, and I’d have to be like waiting. Yeah, exactly. Wait, wait. So we can’t do the secret until we knew it was, you know, pretty serious.

Damona 32:13

And your husband works in Hollywood. Right. So

Unknown Speaker 32:15

Kim? Tv director, yeah, yeah. So he started out working on Bora. And with Sacha Baron Cohen, which, of course, that’s very current at the moment. And then he went into movies, and he directed the Muppets movie, and LSU the looking glass with Johnny Depp. And don’t forget

Damona 32:34

Dora. Actually, as a parent, I love Dora. I thought it was so. so charming. And I didn’t even realize that he he had directed it. And then when I saw you directed, I was like, of course, it

Unknown Speaker 32:46

was so charming. And sweet and funny. And and he really makes movies in His own image, I think just charming and generous and kind and funny. Yes,

Damona 32:57

yes. And so that’s interesting. Okay, so your husband will say his name is James bobbin. Right. That’s right. Yeah. He so working in Hollywood, I imagine that’s

Unknown Speaker 33:07

kind of

Damona 33:09

that impacts the relationship in some way. And my husband is also he’s a TV writer. I don’t I rarely talk about what he does. So my listeners might not

Unknown Speaker 33:18

even know.

Unknown Speaker 33:22

It was James wacky. And I’m like, I don’t really know, we didn’t talk about things like that.

Unknown Speaker 33:26

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Like

Damona 33:28

my husband wrote on the walking dead for three seasons, literally, maybe saw a few episodes. Like, why

Unknown Speaker 33:36

not watching. But you

Damona 33:38

know, it’s it’s interesting when you’re in a way, in living a relationship in the public eye. And, and I bring this up, because also, some of our listeners, even though they might not be able to relate to being in Hollywood, social media does add this element of playing out your relationship publicly. Do you feel like that’s, that’s ever been an element, you know, especially having been a TV host. And, and now, you know, moving into being an author and having your bookshop? Does does that? Do you think impact your your relationship in any way, the public element?

Unknown Speaker 34:17

You know, I really don’t, to be honest, I really don’t. I mean, we’ve been together 20 years, we met when we were young. And so again, I think there’s such a friendship built on that that social media is something that we both do for work purposes. But it’s it’s social media, it’s very much a work thing for both of us. So it feels pretty separate to our kind of real life in inverted commas. I mean, obviously there’s exceptions to that. But I suppose particularly because what he does is is now pretty different to what I do and you know it kind of Hollywood dinner parties when I Samurai to people, of course, they all you know, what movies Did you write and when I say I’m a historian, people kind of think maybe I’m joking. And they’re not sure whether to kind of laugh or not. Because you know, it’s a it’s an unusual job in, in Hollywood, right? I get the same thing. When

Damona 35:09

I say I’m a dating coach people are like, really like, a deep soul conversation, doesn’t it?

Unknown Speaker 35:18

Yes, you can’t say it without without it becoming your whole thesis, I have to take a deep breath and go. And sometimes you find you lie, because you can’t remember to talk about it. Sometimes I want to be like, I’m an accountant. So that then like people don’t ask me about it. Because I know, you know, once the subject comes up, people will ask me about it.

Damona 35:34

So what is the topic then when you’re at these Hollywood dinner parties? What’s the topic that all the movie stars want to discuss with you?

Unknown Speaker 35:40

Okay, I’ll tell you what they all want to know, is, what do men look for in a woman? And what do women look for in a man? Because I, you know, I feel like I do have a unique insight into that, because I can put the historical perspective on it, right? So there’s all the kind of current data or research about mate choice, but I have a uniquely historical perspective of 250 years of what people have looked for and how that’s changed. What goods give us? Well, they’ll say, What do men look for? What do women look for? The trouble is the answer I have to give because it’s the truth is not as kind of depressing. So because much of my choice is predicated on evolution, there’s always going to be an element of it, right, which is men looking for, for women who are fertile. And women looking for men who can support offspring, I have resources, right. And now that is obviously a huge generalization. And as with every year goes by, there’s more and more exceptions to that, of course, and even the definition of that changes. So, you know, women looking for men with resources in the 18th century, that would have meant cash or property. But these days, it can mean a good sense of humor, or like a lot of Instagram followers, or like, you know, really clever, you know, designing websites or whatever it is, it just means, you know, be able to support offspring, if that if that comes to the relationship, and then the same, obviously, as women choose not to have children or to have children later, like obviously, you know, men looking for women who are fertile. That’s very, you know, reductive and a huge generalization. But looking at the evidence, because so much of it is about evolution. And that’s not going to change if one has to generalize. That’s the answer. And I wish it weren’t, I wish I could give you a different answer. I’m all I would emphasize is that, of course, there are so many exceptions to that in terms of ages and situations. And with each year that goes by you get more and more exceptions to thank goodness,

Damona 37:46

I love hearing the historical perspective, because I think, you know, we are all a product of our history, right? And everything that we’ve learned from previous generations and everything that is biologically entrenched within our society. Exactly, no, ignore it, but we have to, I feel that we have to see it, and embrace it. But I think we are at an interesting time, Francesca because I think we are we are at this place. Where are ours? Our actions have sort of moved beyond our biology, our societies move beyond our biology. And we’re in this really weird dissonant period where everybody’s trying to figure it out. Right. And I guess that’s what keeps me doing this show for

Unknown Speaker 38:28

eight seasons. But maybe you want to me is like how, you know how quickly we’re going to move beyond that entirely in that, like, why hasn’t marriage already died out? You know, we talked about, you know, people, you know, that marriage will have disappeared and don’t yet it it kind of seems to like cling on in this weird way. And so I’m actually I’m interested in, in a weird way, how slowly things are changing how slowly dating is changing how slowly it’s changing what people look for in relationships, you know, I would have thought that there might have been a more radical shift and in some strange ways, you know, humans do seem to be oddly kind of conservative with a small see sometimes about the way they form their their relationships. I I’m waiting for that to be a more radical shift. And I hope it I hope it happens but, but we’ll see. We will see

Damona 39:20

Well, I appreciate everything you’ve shared with us. I think this book literally, it’s fascinating. Everybody run and check out matrimony ink, from personal ads, just swiping right a story of America looking for love so many more stories than even what Francesca was able to share. And don’t forget to follow her on Instagram at Franz bookshop, your you’re a gem and I’m so glad that you were able to join us on the show and share your insights.

Unknown Speaker 39:48

Thank you so much for having me. It’s been really fun.

Damona 39:50

We will of course put the link to this amazing book in the show notes. You can get it on Amazon matrimony, Inc. From personal ads, too. swiping right a story of America looking for love. By the way, I am super excited to announce something new demonios coI will be curating lists of my favorite love content and books of prior guests. My favorite love. I’ll be curating lists of my favorite resources on love. Everything from podcasts, to books, to videos that you can watch to books that prior guests let me receive free By the way, I am super excited to announce demonios content club. I think I need something else in there. By the way, I am super excited to announce something new de Mona’s content club.ntent club, I will be curating lists of my favorite resources on love everything from podcasts, to videos to books from prior guests and you My friends, you can have access to all that juiciness. All you have to do is become one of my patreon friends with benefits for just five bucks a month. You can get in the club, you can come to my behind the mic weekly, live streams on Facebook, you can get tons of other resources and items for them from the dates and mates library. And you can get into demonios content club you can find all of that [email protected] slash dates and mates and again, it’s just five bucks. Five bucks support the show and get some more goodies for yourself patreon.com slash dates and mates. This episode is number 335 of this show on this episode is number 335 of dates and mates. I would love to hear from you. I am already taking audios and taking questions. I would love for us to connect on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. Because I need to know what’s on your mind. I need to be answering your questions in love. And I am taking questions right now for our next dear demona episode. You can DM me a voice memo of your question you can you can message it to me You can even give me a call. Give me a call girlfriend 424-246-6255 leave it on my voicemail right there. And you could be on a future episode of dates and mates and get your love problems solved. So hit me up at damona Hoffman on all the socials. I will be back again next week with the fabulous Monique Kelly who’s going to talk all about how you can celebrate your singlehood but until next week, I wish you world peace and happy dating

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